A List Nothing. This Guy is Z List.
Thursday April 21, 2005 / 40 CommentsThis post was an educational prank coordinated by Keith and myself. You can see his response and follow up for more details. Also, here’s my brief follow up.
First things first, I like Keith but his new design is just a little over the top for me. The IA and content is respectable, but after thinking about it, I just can’t get over the fact that he blatanly ripped off Subtraction? C’mon Keith, did you think nobody would notice?
We’re talking about a guy that presented at SXSW, and the best he can do is rip off somebody else’s design? Where’s the creativity in that? Ok so he added a color picture instead of a black and white one. And the highlighted state of the navigation matches that picture. You have to be kidding me. That’s not creative.
Then, as if the navigation wasn’t enough, he goes after the whole monochomatic color scheme. Hmmm, where have I seen that before? Oh wait, Khoi did that with Subtraction. The worst part about all of it was that when I was reading through his comments and somebody else called him out on it, his reply was simply, “WTF?” Just admit to it, it’s not a secret.
Oh well. Like I said in the beginning, Keith’s a good guy, and he can party with the best of them. But when it comes to design, he’s capable of more than this. So, c’mon Keith. Why don’t you step up to the plate and do something original? Your old site was great. Where’s that level of creativity?
Update: Keith has responded. Fair enough.
Featured Stuff - Resources: Wireframes & Page Description Diagrames
Omnigraffle and Visio versions of the wireframe templates and stencils I use on all of my projects. There’s even a few examples included for good measure. More about Wireframe & Page Description Diagram Stencils and Templates
ouch Anonymous
Haha. This coming from a guy that ripped off 37signals? Anonymous
Wow, harsh words. What’s with the attack?
The similarities between Keith’s new design and the Subtraction site have been made only about 10 times in the comments on his site, nothing new here. It seems a little two-faced to give Keith the pat-on-the-back when you commented at his site, then turn around and write this rant of a post. Z-list? Come on.
Your site reminds me of Basecamp, but it’s different. Is that bad? Should the guys at 37Signals write a rant post about how your site is utterly lacking in creativity? Justin Perkins
There’s some thin ice here. You gots to be careful biting the brotherhood. Yikes. Josh Williams
I think he’s made it sufficiently different. I mean, that nav isn’t exactly original to subtratction either – I had similar designs 5 years ago… Its kind of like saying everyone with tabs is copying amazon – its just too common a design now. I’d give him a break… sxates
I’d almost think it was April Fools, this was so harsh.
I think we have to be careful in being overly critical of other designs. Like, has anyone ever mentioned that your design looks like a SvN / Blogger mashup? With the big text of SvN with the rounded boxes that fade out ala Blogger.
(well, obviously the comments above beat me to the punch on the SvN thing) Jonathan Snook
I second Josh’s “Yikes”. Wow. Ryan Sims
I third Josh’s “Yikes”. Wow. Keegan Jones
Sure, I’ll forth Josh’s “Yikes” and second his “You gots to be careful biting the brotherhood.” Jeremy Boles
Ok, it came across as a bit harsh, but the goal was really just to call out Keith in a very public way and let him know that I expect more. A little bit of a mixed message, I know, but I had to say it.
As for my site’s “style”. Yes, the visuals should definitely throw a few hints as to whose work I admire, but when it comes down to it, they are merely hints. If using a large arial bold headline is too similar to anybody else’s stuff, that’s due to a lack of options rather than choice. Garrett
:duck: Adam Michela
Oh, Garrett. If there’s anything I’ve learned in my time blogging, you don’t call people out publicly like this—it’s just not cricket. What did you hope to accomplish by trying to humiliate a fellow designer? Your criticism isn’t even constructive, man. Everyone should feel free to complain about the design community as a whole all you want, but don’t attack people where they work and live.
Enjoy the backlash :) B. Adam
I’m the guy or one of them who commented in Keith’s thread about the subtraction similarities but, I actually like Keith’s design better than subtraction: I find it easier to navigate and my comment was not a flame, it was just a thought.
To assume that even someone as skilled as Keith doesn’t get ideas from others or shouldn’t seems a bit over the top to me. It might have been a bit better or more gracious had he acknowledged (cited) his sources of ideas and maybe he did, I don’t remember but I don’t hold that against him. We all get ideas from seeing other people’s work, don’t you?
However, as long as you brought it up, and this is really an aside, I’ve seen some amazing rants when “newbies” or whatever they’re called these days rip entire designs and I’m not saying that Keith did anything near that but if the community is going to flame beginners then we all have to live by the same standards. Richard
Whatever man. I’m a hack? Maybe your just envious?
My response. Keith
Where’s the creativity in calling Keith out? That’s already been done. Talk about a ripoff. Dale Cruse
Can’t we all just get along? It’s a blog for cripes sakes. You’ve got some great articles on here, I hope you’re not scraping the bottom of the topic barrel with this one or we’re all losing out. Adam
I’ll fifth or sixth or ninth or whatever Josh’s “Yikes”. Ryan Brill
Hmm. I talked about somebody elses blog in the 6th post of my new blog too.
Coincidence? I doubt it. Pirate!
I kid .. I kid! Adam Michela
bullshit, thats menu is so unbelievably popular. that was one of the first things i made when i was a kid – without ever seeing anyone else do it. it works, it looks good… you suck. me
Okay, okay … let’s all settle for a moment. I think maybe Garrett’s choice of words were poor, but his meaning was (maybe) that Keith is a brillant designer and when a redesign is performed, we look to these ‘A list guys’ to show us something different. To push the design forward. I think Keith’s response was fair and appropriate given Garrett’s language choice … a semantics issue and not an intentional slam fest. Eddie
Hey Garrett,
I really like your new site and was looking forward to seeing how it developed. However it seems like a bit of a mistake to jump straight in and slagging off other bloggers. Reminds of the recent I don’t like Scrivens post doing the rounds. A great way to get lots of other sites linking to you and talking about you. But probably not the best way to start off.
Interestingly I think Keith said it best at the start of the month, with his Bitching Blogsphere Andy Budd
Aside from the similarity in the navigation, I don’t really see a rip-off there. As for the mono-chromatic thing, I don’t think Subtraction pioneered that visual style.
V-2 seems to have a similar style nav as well, so maybe they both ripped off Adam?
I um…8th or 9th…wherever we are in that…what Josh said. Jeremy Flint
Thats a bit harsh…. I was thinking the same thing the first time i came to this site – what a rip off of 37Signals…. Get some originality and class bro… this is just cheese. Brian Fox
Ah yes, the “I Don’t Like Scrivens” post. The only good thing about that post was the title… I don’t know why but it still cracks me up to this day.
By the way Garett, let me know if you need help with that Frutiger. Mike D.
Mike, I will probably follow up with you for the later tweaks. I originally launched with the site not being 100% complete. (Hanging my head in shame.)
sIFR is the front runner, but I also want to have fun with the comment form. Thanks for the offer. Garrett
On the bright side, it looks like it was a good post to generate traffic! Kenzie
Wow.
A lot of people are ridiculously retarded about stuff like this. Everybody is chomping at the bit to be able to accuse somebody of stealing a design.
This, you accusing another of biting another, is slightly less annoying, however, than high-horse designers claiming somebody stole their work when the similaritie are similar to the situation here.
There isn’t a lot that hasn’t already been done, people. Almost nothing, in fact, if you really want to start breaking things down.
Just relax and do your thing… evolution will work out the kinks… Seth Thomas Rasmussen
I applaud the way you both use letters of the alphabet and stuff. Man, I wish I could do that.
Oh, and different colors, too. Um…black and white are colors, aren’t they? Eric
Yeah, nothing like a little controversy to pump the stats!
I feel like the similarities are so minor. It’s not PiratedSites worthy or anything.
Garrett: if your intent was to “let him know that I expect more”, it could have been done in a more constructive way instead of a confrontational one. We designers have to compete enough as it is – we can at least be civil. There’s no need to insult (“Z list”) – and if your intent is to challenge someone to elevate their level of work, consider doing it in a constructive way. That’s more likely to get results than a public pie-throwing. Allan White
I agree with Seth (whose nice monochrome stylesheet I lifted a few months ago – thanks Seth), it is all evolution, and I don’t think there is really any bad blood here anyway, but to add more fuel to the fire the subtraction style nav first established itself at AIGA, who are clients of both Khoi and Naz.
check out the slideshow graphic at weightshift to see what I mean, and they even have the copyrighted diagonal lines :)
Compared with all our styles if we’ve been at it for more than 4 years we are all biting Jacob Nielsen, oh the horror… dave
How is this a ripoff? The buttons are both black? What the crap. The font-size is different, they’re numbered. Different Height. Different Highlight Color. Different Width of Bar. Different Width of each button. Different logo placement. Bar for one is first element on page, the other is the fourth.
If making a black box with white lines between them is a rip-off then I better what myself. I was making blue boxes with white lines between them, is that different enough? Nathan
Nice way to boost the crap out of your hits and your Google PR for your new site, but I think it’s a cheap cheap shot. I see a lot of 37signals in your work (the headings, the colors, the big type, the yellow highlighter), but that’s OK, because the design is basically still yours, but then you take a shot at Keith for something far less obvious?
I don’t think his design is a rip off at all – I’d hardly call big rectangular links for the navigation “ground breaking navigation” or “a strong visual identity”, would you?
Once again, great way to launch your new site and boost PR though. Justin French
Dave, you thieving bastard!
P.S. Well done on the prank guys. Jerks.
;-p Seth Thomas Rasmussen
I think everyone needs a hug. Zach
Sweet. Every time someone insults someone, my post comes up. Too bad everybody (even Andy Budd) doesn’t get it. Oh well. This one isn’t much better. Good thing I read Keith’s post first! Rob Mientjes
Rob, I tried to IM you last night and warn you. Serves you right for ignoring me ;) Adam Michela
there are only something like 30 odd layouts acheivable and that are any good when web designing. me again
Nerds! The sh|t looks the same everywhere! Everyone rips off everyone else. It’s getting old and boring. The navigation looks the same for numerous sites. One I remember in particular is http://www.456bereastreet.com/. Design is Dead.
Screw this! I’m going back to print with my typewriter!
ps nice joke! parrfolio
All the blogger / MT sites look the same, who the hell cares. Everything is templated anyway! piperboy
I do think that this little prank proved one thing: We all need to get out a bit more… ;) Well, that, and a good review of the words “obvious satire” is in order! But, as a wise man once said, “There’s no such thing as bad publicity except for your own obituary.” And considering how many sites I’ve seen this mentioned on so far, this is certainly in the “good publicity” column. Good stuff, I’ll be visiting again real soon… :) Michael Bankston
Comments are closed for this entry.